I am sorry to have to say this, but why do people assume that because a book is in electronic format it should be free? I find it very strange than even those familiar with the work that goes into electronic publications would suggest that it should be free of charge. The site about Open Access referred to by Klaus is clearly intended for journals and similar publications, not for works as the Exeter CD. Indeed, I cannot imagine approaching Andy Orchard, for example, and saying, "I always wanted to buy _Pride and Prodigies_, but it is too expensive, could I have it for free?" This is the kind of publication we are talking about, not articles in journals; but incredibly complex publications that, more often than not, require the cooperation of a team of people. Those who think that publishing on the internet is free should take into account costs such as maintenance and upgrading. Someone has to care for the texts on the internet for these to remain available. In some cases, without university support, a private individual will even have to pay for the space on the internet. Of course we all want more access to primary materials and libraries are doing a good job digitizing their books, making them available and maintaining the sites. We should be happy that we can count on this and stop trying to get everything for free.
Best,
Barbara Bordalejo
----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Graf klaus.graf@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de Date: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:20 pm Subject: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
In my opinion an Open Acess web page with the digitized Exter book in reasonable quality would be better than any CD.
Klaus Graf
PS: What is Open Access: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
I am in agreement with Barbara. Digital editions of manuscripts such as the Exeter Book, Beowulf, Junius, etc. cannot be made free. Even if people wanted to make the manuscripts free it would be not be cost effective to do so. If Bernard Muir had to come all the way from Australia to England just to photograph the book for free it would be a total waste of money for him. Also, the money it takes to photograph the book then have a team of professionals put it together is not a one person task. Even to write the code to make the program work is too complicated for a single person to do. There are many other costs I am sure that I am not counting, but just these alone would amount to a pretty significant number.
Actually, if you consider the cost of the MSS in color compared to a facs. that you may find that it is well worth the price. I mean the digital Junius MS is priced very well for the quality. If you consider the size of the Exeter Book compared to the Junius MS then you will also know that the Exeter Book is priced fairly well too.
I guess you just have to consider that buying the CD is actually saying Thanks to Bernard Muir and everyone else who took the time to complete the project. Additionally, you can consider it as helping them complete the project with your own personal contribution to pay for the airfare, salaries, food, and anything else that they spent money on.
Abdullah
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Bordalejo" bb268@nyu.edu To: "Digital Medievalist Community mailing list" dm-l@uleth.ca Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD: for free?
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
I am sorry to have to say this, but why do people assume that because a
book is in electronic format it should be free? I find it very strange than even those familiar with the work that goes into electronic publications would suggest that it should be free of charge.
The site about Open Access referred to by Klaus is clearly intended for
journals and similar publications, not for works as the Exeter CD. Indeed, I cannot imagine approaching Andy Orchard, for example, and saying, "I always wanted to buy _Pride and Prodigies_, but it is too expensive, could I have it for free?" This is the kind of publication we are talking about, not articles in journals; but incredibly complex publications that, more often than not, require the cooperation of a team of people.
Those who think that publishing on the internet is free should take into
account costs such as maintenance and upgrading. Someone has to care for the texts on the internet for these to remain available. In some cases, without university support, a private individual will even have to pay for the space on the internet.
Of course we all want more access to primary materials and libraries are
doing a good job digitizing their books, making them available and maintaining the sites. We should be happy that we can count on this and stop trying to get everything for free.
Best,
Barbara Bordalejo
----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Graf klaus.graf@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de Date: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:20 pm Subject: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
In my opinion an Open Acess web page with the digitized Exter book in reasonable quality would be better than any CD.
Klaus Graf
PS: What is Open Access: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
While I agree with both Barbara and Abdullah, that commercially-created facsimiles, books (electronic or not), and the multitude of digital research tools are all viable commerical products that we shouldn't expect to receive for free. My only reservation with this line of thinking is when it comes to publicly-funded projects. It seems to me that all of these open-archive/open journals/etc. initiatives are attempting to address the problem of research that is publicly funded, but then needs to have even more public money spent to read the results of it. Of course, publishers have an equal right to make money off of the value they add to the process (printing, dissemination, peer review, corrections, etc.). However, as Barbara pointed out, open journals (etc.) are not the same kind of product.
An interesting question isn't whether the commerical products should be free, they shouldn't, but whether the output of a publicly-funded research project should be? It seems ridiculous to me that taxpayers money is spent funding research in field X, and that university library budgets are stretched to the limit attempting to purchase the journals in which it is published. You pay for something to be done, and then pay even more to see the results. But what about when this is not published in a journal, but produces an electronic resource of some sort?
In the United Kingdom, any project which creates a significant digital output that is funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Board or now British Academy is *required* to deposit a copy of the data with the Arts and Humanities Data Service. (Those receiving Leverhulme funding are only suggested to do so...) This is done under a non-exclusive license that doesn't prevent the depositor doing other things with it (including commerical publication).
(I have, of course, a vested interest in this since the Oxford Text Archive hosts the UK's Arts and Humanities Data Service's centre for Literature, Languages and Linguistics, let me know if you (whether UK or not) have any electronic texts you want to deposit! ;-) )
-James
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Abdullah Alger wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
I am in agreement with Barbara. Digital editions of manuscripts such as the Exeter Book, Beowulf, Junius, etc. cannot be made free. Even if people wanted to make the manuscripts free it would be not be cost effective to do so. If Bernard Muir had to come all the way from Australia to England just to photograph the book for free it would be a total waste of money for him. Also, the money it takes to photograph the book then have a team of professionals put it together is not a one person task. Even to write the code to make the program work is too complicated for a single person to do. There are many other costs I am sure that I am not counting, but just these alone would amount to a pretty significant number.
Actually, if you consider the cost of the MSS in color compared to a facs. that you may find that it is well worth the price. I mean the digital Junius MS is priced very well for the quality. If you consider the size of the Exeter Book compared to the Junius MS then you will also know that the Exeter Book is priced fairly well too.
I guess you just have to consider that buying the CD is actually saying Thanks to Bernard Muir and everyone else who took the time to complete the project. Additionally, you can consider it as helping them complete the project with your own personal contribution to pay for the airfare, salaries, food, and anything else that they spent money on.
Abdullah
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Bordalejo" bb268@nyu.edu To: "Digital Medievalist Community mailing list" dm-l@uleth.ca Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD: for free?
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
I am sorry to have to say this, but why do people assume that because a
book is in electronic format it should be free? I find it very strange than even those familiar with the work that goes into electronic publications would suggest that it should be free of charge.
The site about Open Access referred to by Klaus is clearly intended for
journals and similar publications, not for works as the Exeter CD. Indeed, I cannot imagine approaching Andy Orchard, for example, and saying, "I always wanted to buy _Pride and Prodigies_, but it is too expensive, could I have it for free?" This is the kind of publication we are talking about, not articles in journals; but incredibly complex publications that, more often than not, require the cooperation of a team of people.
Those who think that publishing on the internet is free should take into
account costs such as maintenance and upgrading. Someone has to care for the texts on the internet for these to remain available. In some cases, without university support, a private individual will even have to pay for the space on the internet.
Of course we all want more access to primary materials and libraries are
doing a good job digitizing their books, making them available and maintaining the sites. We should be happy that we can count on this and stop trying to get everything for free.
Best,
Barbara Bordalejo
----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Graf klaus.graf@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de Date: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:20 pm Subject: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
In my opinion an Open Acess web page with the digitized Exter book in reasonable quality would be better than any CD.
Klaus Graf
PS: What is Open Access: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
--- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at ota dot ahds dot ac dot uk
Has Bernard paid his own airfare to the U.K. to work on the Exeter project? I don't know him well enough to ask, but I'd say probably not, if his professional life is financed the way that of most professors is. Rather, he got a grant from an agency (public or non-profit) that is not asking to be reimbursed. Who paid for all that programming? Possibly the press, which will want its money back, but if the same programming is being used by OUP, which is selling Junius 11 at a fraction of the cost, I doubt it: If I were Exeter UP and I had paid for the programming, I'd be demanding a fee that would jack up the price of the Junius CD and lower my own price. No, I'll bet that the programming was paid for by Bernard's university or some granting agency--which, in that case, is not looking for its money back.
So what explains the difference in price? Sorry, not the amount of material: the books contain approximately the same number of folios (Exeter 123 folios; Junius 229 pp., or 115 folios). Perhaps the two presses are thinking very differently about prices and profits: Exeter remembering what Rosenkilde and Bagger used to charge for EEMF volumes and OUP thinking about the actual cost of producing the CD. Or maybe Exeter Cathedral is charging a high royalty while the Bod is charging a low one (but my experience of both libraries suggests that that is unlikely). Truly, I can't explain it.
As to the general point about free electronic resources vs. ones you pay for, I think there is room in the world for both. There are good reasons to charge for electronic resources; but I hope there will always be a place for free resources as well, and I am heartened that so much high-quality material is available on the web. For my own part, I'd like for any electronic resources I produce to be freely available.
Peter
Abdullah Alger wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
I am in agreement with Barbara. Digital editions of manuscripts such as the Exeter Book, Beowulf, Junius, etc. cannot be made free. Even if people wanted to make the manuscripts free it would be not be cost effective to do so. If Bernard Muir had to come all the way from Australia to England just to photograph the book for free it would be a total waste of money for him. Also, the money it takes to photograph the book then have a team of professionals put it together is not a one person task. Even to write the code to make the program work is too complicated for a single person to do. There are many other costs I am sure that I am not counting, but just these alone would amount to a pretty significant number.
Actually, if you consider the cost of the MSS in color compared to a facs. that you may find that it is well worth the price. I mean the digital Junius MS is priced very well for the quality. If you consider the size of the Exeter Book compared to the Junius MS then you will also know that the Exeter Book is priced fairly well too.
I guess you just have to consider that buying the CD is actually saying Thanks to Bernard Muir and everyone else who took the time to complete the project. Additionally, you can consider it as helping them complete the project with your own personal contribution to pay for the airfare, salaries, food, and anything else that they spent money on.
Abdullah
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Bordalejo" bb268@nyu.edu To: "Digital Medievalist Community mailing list" dm-l@uleth.ca Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD: for free?
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
I am sorry to have to say this, but why do people assume that because a
book is in electronic format it should be free? I find it very strange than even those familiar with the work that goes into electronic publications would suggest that it should be free of charge.
The site about Open Access referred to by Klaus is clearly intended for
journals and similar publications, not for works as the Exeter CD. Indeed, I cannot imagine approaching Andy Orchard, for example, and saying, "I always wanted to buy _Pride and Prodigies_, but it is too expensive, could I have it for free?" This is the kind of publication we are talking about, not articles in journals; but incredibly complex publications that, more often than not, require the cooperation of a team of people.
Those who think that publishing on the internet is free should take into
account costs such as maintenance and upgrading. Someone has to care for the texts on the internet for these to remain available. In some cases, without university support, a private individual will even have to pay for the space on the internet.
Of course we all want more access to primary materials and libraries are
doing a good job digitizing their books, making them available and maintaining the sites. We should be happy that we can count on this and stop trying to get everything for free.
Best,
Barbara Bordalejo
----- Original Message ----- From: Klaus Graf klaus.graf@geschichte.uni-freiburg.de Date: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:20 pm Subject: [dm-l] Re: Exeter Book CD
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
In my opinion an Open Acess web page with the digitized Exter book in reasonable quality would be better than any CD.
Klaus Graf
PS: What is Open Access: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/overview.htm
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Well, whether materials should be free or not, I think that OUP books (to say nothing of electronic materials) are horrible over-priced,and they are not very well proof read or copy edited, either. I quit buying UP books about 15 years ago....if I need one, I can find it either in my college library or through Inter Library Loan....I hope some day one will be able to et CDROMs, DVD,s, whatever, the same way. My school has a contract with Microsoft that allows all faculty, staff, and students to get Office for nothing -- why can't we develop the same situation with CDs ?
Dear All,
The Junius 11 CD-ROM (Bodleian Digital Texts 1) was published by the Bodleian rather than OUP. The Bodleian supported the project financially (the development of software), provided the images and contributed to the development of the interface. All the technical and academic work was done by Burnard Muir and his team. The images published on the CD were already available when the work on the project started six years ago: they are still available free of charge for personal use by researchers via Early Manuscripts at Oxford University (http://image.ox.ac.uk/). The next project in the series will be MS. Auct. F. 2.13 (Terence's Comedies). The images are also available via the Early Manuscripts at Oxford University site. The CD-ROM works only with Internet Explorer because Microsoft's implementation of JavaScript was used (you may have noticed the use of JavaScript in the extract posted by Martin). As far as I know Burnard Muir's team will try to overcome this limitation in the next CD-ROM.
Elizabeth
Dr. Elizabeth Solopova Department of Special Collections and Western Manuscripts Bodleian Library Broad Street Oxford OX1 3BG Tel.: +44 (0)1865-277073 E-mail: es@bodley.ox.ac.uk Internet: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/
Thanks for this clarification, Elizabeth. I was very excited to find the Bod's images site just as I was preparing to teach Exodus to my grad. seminar last spring. What the Bod is doing here seems a good solution: the images are available for free; you can get an accurate text of the Junius poems free too. But the CD adds value for those willing and able to pony up the (perfectly reasonable) £50.
Well, it adds value for most. Not for me, since I run Linux. Not for the large numbers of medievalists who run Mac OS X. I think it a really dreadful mistake to use MS's extensions to JavaScript, forcing people to use The Worst Browser Now Available. On the other hand, the Dictionary of Old English made the same mistake, so at least you're in good company.
Peter
Elizabeth Solopova wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
Dear All,
The Junius 11 CD-ROM (Bodleian Digital Texts 1) was published by the Bodleian rather than OUP. The Bodleian supported the project financially (the development of software), provided the images and contributed to the development of the interface. All the technical and academic work was done by Burnard Muir and his team. The images published on the CD were already available when the work on the project started six years ago: they are still available free of charge for personal use by researchers via Early Manuscripts at Oxford University (http://image.ox.ac.uk/). The next project in the series will be MS. Auct. F. 2.13 (Terence's Comedies). The images are also available via the Early Manuscripts at Oxford University site. The CD-ROM works only with Internet Explorer because Microsoft's implementation of JavaScript was used (you may have noticed the use of JavaScript in the extract posted by Martin). As far as I know Burnard Muir's team will try to overcome this limitation in the next CD-ROM.
Elizabeth
Dr. Elizabeth Solopova Department of Special Collections and Western Manuscripts Bodleian Library Broad Street Oxford OX1 3BG Tel.: +44 (0)1865-277073 E-mail: es@bodley.ox.ac.uk Internet: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
This has not a lot to do with the pricing issue. But I will say that the Bodleian is to be praised for making images available on the web without charge and on the CD for a very reasonable cost.
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
In any case, thanks to the Bodleian; I can use the online images. Maybe I'll buy a program to run "the other OS" on my mac or go to the library. Sigh!
Grover Zinn
Grover A. Zinn Associate Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences William H. Danforth Professor of Religion 101 Cox Building 70 N. Professor Street Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 44074 440-775-8410 FAX: 440-775-6662 grover.zinn@oberlin.edu
--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:35 AM -0400 Peter Baker psb6m@virginia.edu wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
Thanks for this clarification, Elizabeth. I was very excited to find the Bod's images site just as I was preparing to teach Exodus to my grad. seminar last spring. What the Bod is doing here seems a good solution: the images are available for free; you can get an accurate text of the Junius poems free too. But the CD adds value for those willing and able to pony up the (perfectly reasonable) £50.
Well, it adds value for most. Not for me, since I run Linux. Not for the large numbers of medievalists who run Mac OS X. I think it a really dreadful mistake to use MS's extensions to JavaScript, forcing people to use The Worst Browser Now Available. On the other hand, the Dictionary of Old English made the same mistake, so at least you're in good company.
Peter
Elizabeth Solopova wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm ---------------- Dear All,
The Junius 11 CD-ROM (Bodleian Digital Texts 1) was published by the Bodleian rather than OUP. The Bodleian supported the project financially (the development of software), provided the images and contributed to the development of the interface. All the technical and academic work was done by Burnard Muir and his team. The images published on the CD were already available when the work on the project started six years ago: they are still available free of charge for personal use by researchers via Early Manuscripts at Oxford University (http://image.ox.ac.uk/). The next project in the series will be MS. Auct. F. 2.13 (Terence's Comedies). The images are also available via the Early Manuscripts at Oxford University site. The CD-ROM works only with Internet Explorer because Microsoft's implementation of JavaScript was used (you may have noticed the use of JavaScript in the extract posted by Martin). As far as I know Burnard Muir's team will try to overcome this limitation in the next CD-ROM.
Elizabeth
Dr. Elizabeth Solopova Department of Special Collections and Western Manuscripts Bodleian Library Broad Street Oxford OX1 3BG Tel.: +44 (0)1865-277073 E-mail: es@bodley.ox.ac.uk Internet: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Grover A. Zinn Associate Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences William H. Danforth Professor of Religion 101 Cox Building 70 N. Professor Street Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 44074 440-775-8410 FAX: 440-775-6662 grover.zinn@oberlin.edu
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The declared system requirements for Junius 11 are Windows 98 or higher; Mac OS 9.x and Mac OS X 10.3+ Internet Explorer 5.5+ (PC) and 5.2+ (Mac). I am not a Mac user myself, so I have not been able to test this.
Elizabeth
This is excellent news.
Grover Zinn
--On Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:13 PM +0100 elizabeth.solopova@bodley.ox.ac.uk wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm ----------------
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The declared system requirements for Junius 11 are Windows 98 or higher; Mac OS 9.x and Mac OS X 10.3+ Internet Explorer 5.5+ (PC) and 5.2+ (Mac). I am not a Mac user myself, so I have not been able to test this.
Elizabeth
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Grover A. Zinn Associate Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences William H. Danforth Professor of Religion 101 Cox Building 70 N. Professor Street Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 44074 440-775-8410 FAX: 440-775-6662 grover.zinn@oberlin.edu
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:59:26 -0400 Grover Zinn Grover.Zinn@oberlin.edu wrote:
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The Junius 11 program runs fine in OS X. No problems at all, as far as I can tell.
~ Martin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701
vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu
Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm
Great. But IE/Mac is deadware: MS announced months ago that there will be no further development. I've heard that it doesn't do Unicode; are thorn and eth still problems? Mac users are migrating to Safari, and it won't be long before IE will be quite rare on Macs. Next time you upgrade your system, you may decide that it's just not worth it to have IE hanging around just so you can run your Junius 11 CD. Let's hope there's a standards-compliant upgrade before that time.
Peter
Martin K. Foys wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:59:26 -0400 Grover Zinn Grover.Zinn@oberlin.edu wrote:
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The Junius 11 program runs fine in OS X. No problems at all, as far as I can tell.
~ Martin
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701 vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm _______________________________________________ Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Agreed. I only have MSIE around now to do my on-line banking (and now Junius 11). . .
~ Martin Foys
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:50:02 -0400 Peter Baker psb6m@virginia.edu wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
Great. But IE/Mac is deadware: MS announced months ago that there will be no further development. I've heard that it doesn't do Unicode; are thorn and eth still problems? Mac users are migrating to Safari, and it won't be long before IE will be quite rare on Macs. Next time you upgrade your system, you may decide that it's just not worth it to have IE hanging around just so you can run your Junius 11 CD. Let's hope there's a standards-compliant upgrade before that time.
Peter
Martin K. Foys wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:59:26 -0400 Grover Zinn Grover.Zinn@oberlin.edu wrote:
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The Junius 11 program runs fine in OS X. No problems at all, as far as I can tell.
~ Martin
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701 vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm _______________________________________________ Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701
vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu
Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm
What is a good alternative to IE on Win based systems?
Abdullah
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Baker" psb6m@virginia.edu To: "Digital Medievalist Community mailing list" dm-l@uleth.ca Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [dm-l] Junius 11 on OS X
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
Great. But IE/Mac is deadware: MS announced months ago that there will be no further development. I've heard that it doesn't do Unicode; are thorn and eth still problems? Mac users are migrating to Safari, and it won't be long before IE will be quite rare on Macs. Next time you upgrade your system, you may decide that it's just not worth it to have IE hanging around just so you can run your Junius 11 CD. Let's hope there's a standards-compliant upgrade before that time.
Peter
Martin K. Foys wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:59:26 -0400 Grover Zinn Grover.Zinn@oberlin.edu wrote:
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The Junius 11 program runs fine in OS X. No problems at all, as far as I can tell.
~ Martin
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701 vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm _______________________________________________ Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Mozilla or Mozilla Firefox: www.mozilla.org. While you're there check out Mozilla Thunderbird, the e-mail client that is saving me from over 100 spams per day. Free, of course.
If you don't mind paying, Opera (www.opera.com) is good. You either put up with their little ads or pay USD 39. Their implementation of W3C standards is (now) good, but not as complete as in the Mozilla projects.
Peter
Abdullah Alger wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
What is a good alternative to IE on Win based systems?
Abdullah
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Baker" psb6m@virginia.edu To: "Digital Medievalist Community mailing list" dm-l@uleth.ca Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [dm-l] Junius 11 on OS X
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers:
http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
Great. But IE/Mac is deadware: MS announced months ago that there will be no further development. I've heard that it doesn't do Unicode; are thorn and eth still problems? Mac users are migrating to Safari, and it won't be long before IE will be quite rare on Macs. Next time you upgrade your system, you may decide that it's just not worth it to have IE hanging around just so you can run your Junius 11 CD. Let's hope there's a standards-compliant upgrade before that time.
Peter
Martin K. Foys wrote:
Digital Medievalist Journal (Inaugural Issue Fall 2004). Call for papers: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/cfp.htm
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:59:26 -0400 Grover Zinn Grover.Zinn@oberlin.edu wrote:
What I DO want to address (only on the basis of Peter Baker's comment about Mac OS X) is the question of the use of the CD on Macs, either OS 9.x or X. To make CDs that run only on Microsoft operating systems is to exclude a significant subgroup of potential users.
(I only hope that the info about Mac X and the CD is wrong; I suspect it is not.)
The Junius 11 program runs fine in OS X. No problems at all, as far as I can tell.
~ Martin
Martin K. Foys Assistant Professor Department of English Hood College Frederick, MD 21701 vox: 301~696~3740 fax: 301~696~3586 ether: foys@hood.edu Bayeux Tapestry Digital Edition, Choice 2004 Outstanding Academic Title: http://www.boydell.co.uk/choice.htm _______________________________________________ Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
Project web site: http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ dm-l mailing list dm-l@uleth.ca http://listserv.uleth.ca/mailman/listinfo/dm-l
On Jul 20, 2004, at 7:35 AM, Peter Baker wrote:
Well, it adds value for most. Not for me, since I run Linux. Not for the large numbers of medievalists who run Mac OS X. I think it a really dreadful mistake to use MS's extensions to JavaScript, forcing people to use The Worst Browser Now Available.
this is exactly the kind of problem we were going around about a few weeks ago. pegging your applications and content to proprietary technology leaves you exposed when that technology turns out to be so problematic that people are starting to abandon it, as is the case now with IE and its security issues.
on the other hand, if you're building according to standards, when one browser turns out to be so problematic that people abandon it, they can still use your app on their new standards-compliant browser. and you don't force people who use a different OS to use two or more different computers. of course, if you have a captive audience, you can force people to do a lot of things.
interestingly, it looks like it's just possible that Apple is cooperating with Mozilla and Opera in developing a standards-compliant version of something like ActiveX. The following, posted this morning to an information architects mailing list, may be of interest to this group:
http://homepage.mac.com/jhobbs/essays/
in any case, the idea is a good one, imo.
j
jeffrey fisher ass't professor religious studies and philosophy bethany college, wv
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Abdullah Alger -
Barbara Bordalejo -
Elizabeth Solopova -
elizabeth.solopova＠bodley.ox.ac.uk
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Grover Zinn -
James Cummings -
Jeffrey Fisher -
Martin K. Foys -
Norman Hinton -
Peter Baker